Walkie wonders if there is a connection with the name for the thugs known as "ISIS" and the Egyptian goddess Isis.
Doing a little non-wikipedia research on both, the name is appropriately chosen.
If there is a connection, the problems we face are much bigger than what we are being lead to believe.
Let the old Egyptian gods sleep with the pharaohs. ISIS is a creature of a neoconservative agenda that never should have seen the light of day. So after the CIA trained them and armed them, we are now obliged to kill them.
If we learned anything at all from Viet Nam, we should know that half measures do not work and that wars should be fought by soldiers and not politicians. The chickens have now come to roost ,so we can now walk away or finish the bloody business. And after it is all over, we should shed the imperial mantle that we have worn so poorly all these many years.
fly, I seem to recall in conversations in the past,you tended to side more with politicians than Soldiers. I won't argue the point and it is not worth the effort to research, just strikes me funny.
So... just for grins and giggles, how would you, a mere fly on the wall, handle the current situation with ISIS? Are you prepared to chase them all into their homes and holes and kill them? It will not be easy, pretty, or pleasant. The world WILL hate us and call us ruthless murderers (again). Have YOU got the stomach for what it would take.?
Politics is to be preferred over war, don't you think? And the world would not hate us so much if we took the time to understand the rest of the world.
C’mon people…let’s get the facts straight…as in correct>
1)What started as an Al Qaeda offshoot…changed into the Islamic Army of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL)…and then into the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS)…and now it is the Islamic State (IS) which is attempting to continue to expand the Caliphate which is headquartered in the Syrian city of Raqqua..
2)There are two different historical entities Ironside is confusing/mixing up:
2a) The Barbary States were run by rulers called Pashas, Deys, or Beys, who were appointed by the ruling Sultan of the Ottoman Empire. They were encouraged to use the pirates to make lots of money, a large portion of which went into the coffers of the Sultan. These Deys did not run Islamic States, despite what you’d like to believe…they were the puppets of the Ottoman Sultans who ruled with a corrupt and iron fist over the residents of these port cities, many of whom are the ancestors of the Berber tribesmen who eventually founded many of todays Arab states, from Morocco, Tunisia, Algeria, Egypt, and yes Libya.
2b) Ironside, as I am someone who has studied America’s First Expeditionary Maritime Force and General William Eaton, who was their commander, at great length…I can tell you there are no historical accounts of the Barbary Pirates fighting for any religion, Islam or otherwise. The Barbary Pirates were not Islamic warriors for crying out loud. These were truly barbaric excuses for humans who had no morals nor any ethical limits…they just took everything they could from anyone, including the other pirates, and killed everyone off of whom they didn’t think they could make any money.
3)What you need to understand, Ironside, is whatever the excuses given in some speech the truth of the matter is according to historical documents many of the European Powers (AKA Great Britain particularly) wanted the Pirates to intercept and interrupt our trade with their customers…remember we were the weakest naval power in the Mediterranean…the big European powers knew that if the Barbary Pirates had enough success capturing our ships and their cargoes the Europeans suspected they’d be too busy to bother them…this was so profitable that the British even signed treaties with the Dey of Algiers who was convinced to attack American shipping just as the British began the War of 1812.
4)The Barbary Pirates had no fanatical Islamic faith to drive them….they had grown fat and lazy from the fact that after every nation had been paying substantial ransom for captured sailors and passengers, we Americans would refuse to pay tribute…..and after having enough of these Pirates who had been let have their own way by the European Powers for way too long because it was easier to pay them than to fight them, we small puny and supposedly weak Americans put together a small force of men and ships and eventually kicked their butts!
Part Two next!
5)Finally, you misstate the facts about Mohammed..his name in its historical accuracy is Muhammed Ironsides)
6) n his early battles he attacked many out of a desire for revenge (the attack on the Lihyan, wriitten in Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 791) and he attacked many because they had rejected him (the three Jewish tribes of Medina, and the Arab tribe of Banu Mustaliq, as written in Bukhari,46:717)...his most fervent spreading of the Islamic faith came in his later battles….such as in the attacks on the Arab tribe of Bani al-Harith…who were told that “If you accept Islam you will be safe” as written in Ibn Ishaq/Hisham, 959.
7)First of all, Ironsides, not every Islamic conqueror of Christian lands has been bloodthirsty and brutal. Read the decree of the Islamic conqueror of Jerusalem…..he decreed that “In the name of the most merciful God, from Omar Ebu Al Khattab to the inhabitants of Aelia, They shall be protected and secured both in their lives and fortunes, and their churches shall neither be pulled down nor made use of by any other than themselves.” [175:7, G.W. Foote and J.M. Wheelrr, Crimes of Christianity]
8)Secondly, it was not in response to the act of the Arab leaders of Islam, but actually because of the acts of the Turkish Sultans and such (ya know, Ottoman types) such as the fanatical Hakeym and many other that caused the European nations to launch their Crusades…..but only after persecuting the Jews in Europe first of course…
9)Have you ever heard about Pope Urban and his Crusades, Ironsides….if not, you need to read up on this historical figure….at a council he called at Placentia in 1095 A.D. attended by 200 bishops, 4000 clergy, and 30,000 laymen.…Pope Urban set the stage…then at the Council of Clermont he set out his grand plan….
10)Urban commanded a Crusade against the ‘Infidels” and promised “Paradise to all those who fell in battle”…..gee, does that sound familiar here???....according to Urban, Christ came “not to bring peace but a sword” and declared the “Cross” was to be the symbol of bloodshed…his followers literally cut crosses all over their bodies…
11)Furthermore, the Crusaders, as they were to be called, were granted a “Plenary Indulgence” which allowed the Armies to copy those deeds earlier forced upon their Christian brethren by the Turkish armies…robbery, murder, rape…..nothing was too much and no punishments would be given…..sounds like a mob of savages out to kill…
12)After the first Crusading Army in Bulgaria was beaten back, Peter the Hermit led a second army of some 25,000 who at Malleville “slayed some 7000 of the inhabitants and committed “every species of grossness and libertinism…virgin modesty was no protection”
…in other words they raped sodomized and otherwise attacked the entire areas populations in every way possible..
13) and the rest, my friends…is History…..
Remember the Egyptian spring a few years back? Tie this to the Egyptian goddess Isis and the group of thugs who are called "ISIS" and things become more clear.
Southern Europe/Northern Africa has become a much larger turmoil since the Egyptian spring.
I'm not saying Egypt is responsible for all of this. I'm saying it is a catalyst for the current situation in Iraq. The flame of the fire starts somewhere.
1. I stand by what the ambassador told Jefferson and Adams as the motivation for their attacks on our ships. This statement is in John Adams notes of that meeting and are in our National Archives.
2. Pope Urban II's speech at the Council of Clermont was not recoded, written down by anyone when it was given. So the account you give of this speech can not be relied on. Those accounts that some wish to use, were written years later. No historian would quote them without noting the fact of their questionable accuracy.
Walkie, I not so sure Islamic extremist would refer to a goddess, however I love the angle at which you are looking.
Fly, Jefferson and Adams were two of our best politicians. If they have sticks and we have guns. Just think how kind of us to have evened the odds. Just witticism... Send politicians, guns, gold, silver, bread, technology, weapons, we can give them everything we think they want. It will not change the fact that they just want your head detached from your body and perhaps a few slaves too, the really unlucky keep there heads.
The Islamic extremists work in genocide. If I say kill them all do I also work in genocide? NO. It just makes me politically incorrect.
Regional, nice refutation.
Ironsides, way to stick your head in the sand and rely on contemporaneous quotes from long dead politicians who obviously had dogs in the fight at the time.
As to your point # 2, guess that means you don't accept the Bible since it was written down "years later".
Regional, are you defending ISIS? Or just displaying your beautiful feathers of history. Barbary pirates were Muslim. That's a fact. Its also a fact that there were other pirates from the Barbary regions. Aloha!
Bryant, The Aramaic text that make up the Bible are much older. Quran and the rantings of Muhammad and his crap story of speaking to Gabriel "old scratch" if you ask me. I think 7th century AD. The Bible and the ranting of Noah as to why in the hell he had to build a boat oh around 13th century BC. Ok ok what text were you speaking of that pre dates 1300bc?
We all complicate everything. Its as simple as kill or be killed. Pick a side. There is no middleground.
Regional how many radical Muslims do you thinks had history class today? How many had lessons in the radical teachings of mohommad today?
What Regional said about the Barbary pirates havering no Islamic faith is for the most part incorrect. They were basically the navy of the Muslim states. I felt like Ironsides is explaining how Islamic radical are a bad and hateful people to the core of human existence driven by religious craze as proved by history and repeated through out history. There actions have always been for jihad not unlike the crusades as Regional pointed out. But unlike the crusades the Islamic extremist actions are repeatedly repeated through out history.
As for much of the Bible it was written by eye witness account Old Testament and New.
A lot of what Regional said is in a way painting with a broad brush if an Eskimo sold you to a Muslim for a slave the Eskimo is the enemy too. And most of the peoples mentioned by Regional supported the Islamic jihad.
22 ,I won't bother to correct all of your misstatements and limit myself to one. The Bible was not written in toto by eyewitnesses. Deutoronomy is composed of writings by two separate individuals. I suggest "A History of God " by Karen Armstrong for an excellent reference source.
And before everybody jumps in my sh*t, I in no way intend to demean the Holy Bible. Nor the Jewish, Christian, and Muslim faiths which rely upon, at least, the Old Testament.
What I do intend to demean are narrow minded people masquerading as "Christians " who condemn an entire religion for the actions of zealots whose interpretation of the Q 'ran bears no resemblance to the espoused beliefs of the majority of Muslims.
You might as well cite the Westboro Baptist Church as emblematic of all Christians.
22, 22, 22, what can I say to you.....
well, first of all, I am a Conservative Christian very active in my mainstream church.....
as to your claim of a Navy of the Muslim States??...do you even know what the definition of a Navy is...it is a sea-borne force to defend a nation or state and its assets from foreign aggressors....
these collections of pirates had largely motley ships, usually converted captured civilian vessels, armed with whatever weapons they could buy...which is why whenever they ran into a European warship the Pirates ran back into their safe harbors where numerous harbor defenses protected them...
just to let you know, there has only once been what has been called a real "Muslim Navy"...and that was the Muslim leaders Ummah and his successor Uthman's, through the efforts of their naval commander, Mu'Awiyah, and his naval fleets...
his ships carried on commerce between Syrian, Palestine, Egypt, and the North African coast beginning in 648 A.D....their best known naval victory was in "the Battle Of The Masts" against the Byzantine Empire and Emperor Constans II...
that was WAY before the Barbary Pirates began their depredations against the Arab States fleets and the European Powers commercial fleets, which they found much more lucrative in the amount of treasure acquired...
the most successful of the Arab leaders efforts to defeat the Barbary Pirates was that of the Governor of Egyptian, Abdullah ibn Sa'ad Abi-as-Sarh, who was both Arab and Muslim....
Abdullah ibn Sa'ad assembled a fleet of warshbips and actually defeated the Barbary Pirates in order to bring this restive area of the North African coast back INTO the Islamic Empire....
"Muslim States"....do you know what the history of Barbary Coast is.....first of all, 22...the name Barbary Coast comes from the bastardization by Westerners of name of the Berber tribesmen who inhabited the desert of North Africa....
Lets take the two leaders who had the most dealings with the Americans...Pashas Yusuf and Hamet Karamanli....
they were Turks, by the way, who had established their own Dynasty in Tripoli...one brother overthrew another...with the aid of the Bey of Tunis....General William Eaton promised to restore the ousted brother, Hamet...
Religion had nothing to do with these battles of Derna...it was which brother would come out on top and would rule the city of Tripoli with the support of the Americans....
Hamet almost got restored to power by Eaton until his brother Yusuf signed a treaty with the American delegation which promised to leave American ships alone...not surprisingly, Hamet fled back to Egypt to avoid being killed by his brother...
now, American support for and then abandonment of of Arab leaders throughout the past century or two is a very common theme...dont you think???
Aside from Genesis most of the bible was writen down from eyewitness testimony, the profits wrote some as well as Kings. Some believe Gods breath wrote it. I guess it was written by a bunch of reporters. Much of the original text are long gone no doubt.
Barbary Pirates of the 18th century were Islamic pirates. Never said they were the Muslim navy. However they did carry orders of the state.
I never questioned anyone's faith neither did I ask.
Bryant am I a Christian? Does my faith fuel my speech? If anyone follows any other religion other than Islam past the time of the profit Mohammad I'm told there going to hell. I'm told if you don't believe in Jesus your going to hell. I disagree with both religions. But I know I'm not Muslim and I don't claim Christianity. This still makes me an infidel.
I'm not so good at getting my point across. We all have the same enemy. An enemy that hates us very much. I say hate them more.
Corrections there should be their. Also I should have said Muslim Barbary pirates of the...
Hate them more should be.
Love your own country men and women so much more than your enemies can hate. May we act only out of love when we take to arms against them. May the mighty hand of our love be so strong that human decency does not allow for our enemy a single breath taken in its wake.
Regional all of the history of the Barabary pirates, Doesn't change the fact that a spade is a spade.
And the best I can tell aside from the Barbary pirates all being spades most were also Muslim from 1600-1800ish.
To me it doesn't mater if the Barbary pirates were scientologist killing, torturing and enslaving the muppets. These type people were our enemy then they are our enemy now they are spades.
22, spend more energy on friends than you apparently expend hating.
Poof! You're a duck and this song is over.
I don't even know you. And I hate the actions of these ISIS types, in part, because I care more for you than you will ever know.
Hate is just a verb. And it's true to the point of how I feel about Muslim RADICALS. Don't get stuck on a word you qwacker.
I've been thinking about the saying love thy enemy just about all day. I have been trying to find away to love them Bryant. I think I've just found it. I hope they die but I also hope to see them in our heaven, when I am dead.