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Ukraine Appeasement
Brooklet Correspondents
Last comment by Ironside 4 years, 1 month ago.

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So, as I listened to the news tonight, I was a little taken aback by the parallels I saw...

Hitler moved aggressively several times in Europe because he KNEW he could bluff and bluster Chamberlain into appeasement. How did that appeasement thing work out for Chamberlain and Britain? Not too good....

Putin does whatever he wants in the former Soviet states because he KNOWS he can bluff and bluster our current president into appeasement. How is appeasement gonna work out this time? Hmmm. Probably the same way it always does... not too good.

President Obama appears to lack any sense of backbone or moral courage. I pity the Ukrainian people, they are in for a rough ride, I think, because no one in the West has the sand to help them. What a shame. What a d--ned shame.

Latest Activity: Mar 03, 2014 at 7:52 PM

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Ironside commented on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2014 at 08:13 AM

Those who fail to read and understand history are doomed to repeat it. What happended to all the NSA spying? Their antennas must be pointing at us instead of them.

Charles_and_Angie_Howell commented on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2014 at 08:22 AM

42Ford, don't know why I can't see your comment here, even though I got a notification. I looked at your comment under your profile.

I served my country in the USAF for more than 20 years, as did my brother (20 years), our father (22 years) and grandfather (18 years until he was KIA in WWII). I enlisted in the early 80's when the Russian Bear WAS the potential enemy. Don't lecture me about hollering for war and then watching from the sidelines. I know more than the average Joe about Russian military capability, Russian military history and Russian military doctrine. Read up, sonny. I have seen this game before.

BTW - I never called for war. A ready defense does not have to be used; it just needs to be ready, willing, and potent. That is NOT the situation under the current administration.

gawalkman commented on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2014 at 08:30 AM

Instead of having to appease today, it could have been prevented altogether. Yet, someone decided to take the early defense system out of Poland - against their wishes I might add.

Who was that I might ask? Some guy who has a healthcare coverage system named after him.

Charles_and_Angie_Howell commented on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2014 at 12:42 PM

42 Ford, you said (in your invisible comment), "Putin more than likely would be doing the same exact thing right now, even if a Republican was in the white house."

I disagree. The Democrats do not like the military, do not trust the military, and seem determined at times to completely defund the military while depending on the supposed good intentions of the world. The world political scene, as a whole, does not have good intentions most of the time. Republicans might see the military as a cash cow, but they at least seem to understand what it is and how to use it.

Carter, Clinton, and now Obama were afraid (my word) to use the military, did not know how to use the military, and therefore were (are) exceptionally BAD at using the military. Reagan and both Bushs were the polar opposites in knowledge, willingness and effectiveness.

BTW - there are a LOT of ways to use military power. Combat is only one.

Bryant commented on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2014 at 16:00 PM

Charlie, I have no doubt you understand a lot. I question your including "both Bushs" in knowing how to use the military. I'll grant you HW but not W. And who can forgat that great effort in Granada? Way to go Ronnie!

I haven't seen 42ford's post so have no idea what was written. But I do know the situation in the Crimean peninsula is more complex than a simple land grab (although land grabbing is -I'm sure- part and parcel of the current debacle).

I do dispute your charaterization of Democrats' supposed dislike of the military. And "completely defund"?! You know better than that on your worst day.

And being afraid to use the military? Clinton's intervention in Bosnia was timidity? I'll give you Carter. Obama approved the surge in Afghanistan (a bad idea in my opinion) and has used drone strikes effectively to eliminate terrorist leadership (without corresponding loss of American lives).

The Ukraine is within Russia's sphere of influence whether they like it or not. Doesn't mean they have to submit. The Crimea is historically and ethnically affiliated with Russia. The Ukranian people -some of them - are revolting because they do not have a history or mechanism for handling disaffection with the government.

I do not see a justifiable, workable military option. If you'd like to lay one out, I would be happy to consider it.

Charles_and_Angie_Howell commented on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2014 at 17:00 PM

Bryant, Clinton's debacle was Somalia. Yes, he was timid in Bosnia. Air power only. Air power and a coalition of ground forces would have saved a lot of ethnic cleansing. Obama approved a surge that (I believe) was planned and developed under President Bush.

I stand by my statements concerning Democratic politician's knowledge and ability with the military. Of course "completely de-fund" was hyperbole.

A workable military option...? OK!

Move the 6th Fleet to the Turkish coast. To go further is too provocative, and we all know the fleet's strength is air power.

Send troops and tanks to lead German and Polish forces to the Dnieper River and establish defensive positions. I am sure there are other moves than can be made with Special Forces that would cause Vladimir to hesitate a little. As the forces are moving, and especially once they are in place, NEGOTIATE from a position of military as well as economic strength.

theflyonthewall commented on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2014 at 17:44 PM

The Russians have alleged that Russian troops have been inserted into the Ukraine to protect ethic Russians. Why not call their bluff? Instead of saber rattling, brinksmanship, and economic sanctions, why not call for a UN condominium? UN troops could keep warring factions in Ukraine apart, allow for a cooling off period, and provide some breathing room until plebisites could determine the fate of all of the disparate groups contained within the borders of a very divided country. Crimea and some of the eastern oblasts could quite possibly elect to become a part of Russia given the strong cultural ties and shared economic interests. It is not inconceivable that regions formally known as Bukovina and Besarabia would elect to rejoin Romania. Before we tread old familiar ground and reignite the Cold War, we nee

theflyonthewall commented on Tuesday, Mar 04, 2014 at 17:47 PM

To continue!

We need to explore every possible option.

Bryant commented on Wednesday, Mar 05, 2014 at 14:23 PM

Sorry, Charlie. The idea of troops on the ground in Bosnia does not now nor did it at the time sound like a good idea. Put our troops on the ground between two warring factions, whose language the majority of the troops would not understand. Whose political/geographical/religious aims probably no one would understand (even the combatabts themselves). And then expect to choose a side? Or referee to make sure they kill each other by the rules? Air power sounds like the right decision. At least to me.

Charles_and_Angie_Howell commented on Wednesday, Mar 05, 2014 at 17:01 PM

I'll agree with those points. I would still call even the air campaign... timid.

When you use military force, the enemy has to believe you will attack them anywhere, anytime, with anything. When you (or your press corps) PUBLICIZE the safe zones... 3 guesses where the enemy hides his soldiers, equipment and supplies?

Sorry, Bill Clinton was/is/and will likely always be - a wuss. Not as incompetent as Jimmy C, and I am still deciding on the current admin. So far, they are still better than Carter, but they can't seem to match Clinton's thimble full of moxey.

Ironside commented on Friday, Mar 07, 2014 at 10:05 AM

Russia has been the sponsor of aggression to topple democratic governments and install Socialist/Communist governments since Lenin came to power. The Soviets trained 5th column operatives in Russia, then sent them back to their countries to lead an internal struggle to overthrow the government. Korea, Cuba and Vietnam are just a few examples of this aggression. Russia today under Putin is no different than Russia during the days of Stalin. Today, Russia in behind the terrorist groups and the Middle Eastern Countries that sponsor them; like Iran; an others.

Reagan got it right when he said it was an “evil empire”. Mitt Romney said Russia was the problem in the world during the Presidential debates. Obama and the press ridiculed him. The problem today is Obama and the Democrats are Socialist/ Communists sharing a common philosophy and hatred for Constitutional Democratic Countries around the world, and especially the Great Constitutional Democratic Republic in the world, the United States. Obama has shown us his total distain for our Constitution. He told Medvedev “ I will have more flexibility after the election”.

Birds of a feather, do flock together. Obama sees his mission in life is to destroy our system of government and economic system that has propelled the United States to the strongest nation in world history. Our country as founded has made us the champion of individual freedom around the world. This philosophy is a dictator’s worst nightmare. This is why we are the target in the world. It is a struggle between good and evil. The history of the human race has been this struggle between good and evil.

When Jesus is taken to the mountain top by the devil, and the devil says to Jesus, “I will give you the whole world if you will bow down to me”, Jesus doesn’t say to the devil, “ you can not give what is already mine”. Instead, Jesus says to the devil “be gone”. The world was being ruled by the devil and those who worship the devil by practicing the seven deadly human sins. Nations were ruled by kings, emperors, pharaohs, and dictators. This all changed on July 4th, 1776 when a group of brave and God loving people declared to the world that the individual had “God given Rights”. Not government, king, emperor, pharaoh, or dictator given rights. This statement to the world were fighting words to a dictator. The United States has been a target of despots ever since.

Finally, Putin will annex the Crimea and Obama won’t care. Birds of a feather, do flock together.

Bryant commented on Friday, Mar 07, 2014 at 11:11 AM

Ironside, what a load of claptrap. Discuss the situation in the Crimea
and don't trot out those tired old witches' tales about Communist Democrats and Obama being the second coming of the devic incarnate. I do not know a single Democrat with a "hatred" for constitutional democratic societies, including our own.

How about the ethnic make-up of Crimea and the preponderance of Russians in that make-up?

How about that majority taking the same action against the new government of the Ukraine that the Ukranian protestors took against the former leader?

Charles_and_Angie_Howell commented on Friday, Mar 07, 2014 at 14:23 PM

Bryant, I was hoping someone would bring that up.

First, the ethnic Russians/Ukrainians are claiming they feel threatened and the Russian Army is there to protect them. But there was no reported violence against ethnic Russians until the Russian Army showed up and the ethnic Russians/Ukrainians started hollering to be a part of Russia and to heck with the Ukraine.

BTW - who will protect the Ukrainians currently stranded in occupied Crimea, which is part of the Ukraine?

Kinda like if Mexico invaded Texas. Sure - there are a lot of people in Texas with a Mexican/Spanish heritage... there are a lot of Anglo Saxons there too. Who speaks for them?

As a side note - there are waaaay too many guns in Texas for the Mexican Army to even try that. Kinda makes you wonder how the Russian occupation would be going if the Ukrainians had personal firearms. Kinda glad I got mine.

Ironside commented on Friday, Mar 07, 2014 at 17:22 PM

Bryant: History is the study of human behavior. Hitler used the same argument as Putin. It was wrong in 1937 and it is wrong today. What happened in Ukraine was the Russian backed leader was put into power by a rigged election done by Putin. The same thing Hitler did to Austria. When he tried to move Ukraine closer to Russia, the majority of Ukraines rose up against his un-Constitution dictates, and ran him out of the country.

As I stated above, dictators can not survive unless they have absolute power. That is why they hate Constitutional Democracies. Democracies live by the rule of law, a Constitution, and the law established by the peoples' represenatives under that Constitution. Dictators believe they are the law and what they say becomes the law. These two opposite philosopies are at war with each other, since we introduce the concepts of freedom in our Declaration of Independence. Prior to July 4th, 1776 despots had free reign in the world. I know this because I have read and studied world history. Despots behave and display all the evil human traits that are associated with the devil. You can call it claptrap but the truth is the truth.

Finally, the Ukraines want the rule of law, that Western European countries and the United States have stood for. Putan wants to rule Ukraine using old world dicitorial power. It is no more complcated than that. I stand with those who believe in the rule of law and a Constitution. P.S the Russian Constitution is a document that enshrines Putins' dicitorial power.

Bryant commented on Monday, Mar 10, 2014 at 14:16 PM

Ironside, thank you for a better response than the previous one. You make some valid points. But, where did you come up with the "... the Russian backed leader was put into power by a rigged election done by Putin."? From my research (not exhaustive by any means), I don't find any references to Russia rigging the 2010 election. The primary was a 10% popular electorate win over a field of over 15 candidates. The run-off was a slim 3.5% victory. Seems like if someone were rigging an election they would like a little more wiggle room at the finale.

Ironside commented on Monday, Mar 10, 2014 at 16:12 PM

Putin flooded the field to fragment the vote, that and enough voter fraud got his man in. From the begining many Ukraineains distrusted him. The protests and finally riots were because of fears they had been duped by the Russians, meaning Putin. That is what the leaders of the protests were saying. If you notice the difference, the United States and Europe are outraged at what Putin has done. The West cites violations of international laws and the UN charter and well established international agreements. This is what Constitutional Domocracies do. They live by the rule of law. Dictators; Putin included; make up the rules as they go about doing and taking what they want. Democracies are always at a disadvantage because they have to build a majority to take action and even then must follow the rule of law. Dictators are not burdened with having to do anything other than give the order for military action. Once Putin got his boots on the ground, it was over for the Ukraineians. Putin will annex the Crimea after another fraud election in Crimea that says they what to belong to Russia. Same thing Hitler did. Finally, the United States should not commit troops. We should announce that we will deploy the missle defense system that Obama stopped in 2010, together with military equipment and training upgrades for all the former Soviets Union Satellite States. The Ukraine would have had a large and strong Army with nuclear weapons had Clinton not gotten the Ukraine to give up it's military in exchange for an agreement by the United States and NATO to protect Ukraine from the very thing it now is facing. Obama signed an extention of this Clinton agreement in 2010. All of this has been the doing of the Liberal Left. It has been a self inflicted wound. The Left believes that with the fall of the Soviet Union, the world has enter a new age when Armies are obsolete. That the new modern world will see no need from military conflict. Problem is the Dictators of the world did not get the memo, nor agree with the memo. The Left always is dreaming of a utopia that they believe they can create. The problem is, to achieve it, human nature has to change, and people have to live a good and moral life. We all know that is not going to happen.

Bryant commented on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2014 at 09:03 AM

Once again you range far afield from my question. Flooding the field with candidates (if Putin in fact did this and it was not the simple operation of democracy in the Ukraine) did not work because the final runoff was between the two major vote getters - one pro-Russian and the other pro-European. Where's the rigging?

Ironside commented on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2014 at 10:24 AM

How did we get Obama. Our press did not vet him to the American people. His radical "I will fundementally transform the nation" statement after he was elected is what Putin did too. His man was protrayed as a populist. That and voter fraud got him elected. But let's assume none of this happened. The fact that Putin's man tried to move the Ukraine back into the orbit of Russia and Putin is justifaction for freedom loving people to rise up and take charge of their destiny. Thomas Jefferson said a revolution now and than is a good thing. It keeps the forces of evil out of power. That is why we our States can call for a Constitutional Convention. Unkraineians could only go to the streets to remove Putin's evil man.

Ironside commented on Tuesday, Mar 11, 2014 at 15:09 PM

Keep in mind that anything reported out of this part of the world is suject to the Soviet propaganda machine that still operates for Putin. To the extent that reporting can be believed about the election in Ukraine, Putin's man was taking steps to move the country back under the control of Russia, Putin and Communism. That is why the people went into the streets to stop it.

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